ron rant.

[phineasjones]

oh come on. i'm done with the self-editing. time for a mini-rant.

it's my own fault for reading opinions with which i know i'm not going to agree. but. ugh.

so. ron/harry. that's what's got me all worked up today. and no, not in that way.

i'm so sick of people saying that the pairing doesn't work because ron is so obviously straight. wtf? there is no canon support for any character being gay. NONE. because jkr never, never mentions any boy having sexual/romantic feelings for another boy. and that would be the only canon support for 'gayness' worth discussing. if you're going to tell me that ron can't be gay because he's so boyish (or sloppy or not very bright - or whatever)... just don't bother. i know what the stereotypes are, thanks, i don't need an hp-based lesson. anyone who reads hp and decides that draco can be gay because he is stuck up and a little prissy (not to mention the wizard-equivalent of a racist) but ron can't because he's not those things... is missing a huge fucking point. and i think many people need a reminder that many of the other stereotypes that lead one to easily accept draco as gay are fanon, not canon.

also. the "problem" of so many h/r fics making ron the top? um. again, jkr never delves into the sexual dynamics between these two does she? if ron as top is not believable it's because the author didn't write it convincingly - not because of some inherent character trait of harry or ron. canon harry and ron are frickin 14 years old, people. this probably hasn't really come up for them. and yes, most authors probably don't write it convincingly. i've already gone on and on about the sorry state of h/r fic.

this makes me want to take starbuckle away somewhere where we can write angsty, smutty best friend love to our hearts' content.

i mean, from a wider view, slash usually impresses me in the way it ignores stereotypes and gives any person/character a full palate of sexual possibilities. not so much with ron, though. it's too bad.

Comments

[starbuckle.livejournal.com]

amen. amen! can i say it again? AMEN.

and you can take me anywhere, baby. ;)

Re:

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

yay! let's go. now.

[silviakundera.livejournal.com]

(not to mention the wizard-equivalent of a racist)

I personally (and again, this is just my personal viewpoint) consider Draco's views to be more comparative to the Palestine vs. Isreal conflict, ect. than KKK style racial prejudice... if only because racial prejudice is thrust upon some innocent group who holds no threat whatsoever... while it can be argued that Muggles are a threat to wizard kind -- as they would likely persecute them if wizards attempted to live an open life.

Not that Draco and the Death Eaters aren't narrow minded threats to the general peace, and Voldemort isn't all sorts of wrong -- means like that do NOT justify the ends, innocents shouldn't have to die for your cause, there has to be another way, ect.

Muggles and wizards are opposing cultural and political forces, and an extremist group on either side can commit evil deeds.

And this. um. explains why I can write Draco, while knowing he's rather lacking in empathy for a large group of others. I don't think he's *right*, and in the real world I'd avoid him like the plague, but I also don't feel the instinctual disgust that racism brings from me.

And since it's all a fictional conflict, I can detach myself. Like I can detach myself from the reality that vampires kill tons of humans, and still enjoy and care about vampire characters in movies, books, and television.

well yeah.

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

the draco-as-racist comment was rather offhand in the ron rant. i think partly i agree with you and partly i see the lines drawn differently. the israel-palistine conflict could be seen as racial as well, though of course it's not that simple. the muggle-wizard thing isn't that simple either. and i think what makes draco a bad guy is that he does see it as simple - bringing it down to insulting hermione because she's connected by blood to a group of people that include some that might put restrictions on/hurt the wizarding world, given the chance. there's a power dynamic to consider as well...

at this point, muggles are pretty much an innocent group. their ancestors, not so much maybe. but most of them aren't allowed knowledge of the wizard world and thus their reaction is untested.

yeah, ok. i'm just rambly - and i'm putting this anology about israel and palestine together in my head whereby the wizards are israel - oprressed by muggles until they mananged to go off and find their own happy space only to fuck it up by turning their opression back on muggles when they find the power to do it and a ruthless enough leader. um. i'd better not attempt to persue that any further.

and btw, i'm a straight up h/d shipper with a penchant for writing and defending h/r. i find empathy for draco as well - more because he's young and he hasn't had a chance to think for himself much yet than because i think the stuff he's done so far in canon is defensable. i do get a bit of that instinctual digust when i read the end of GoF... so i try not to think about it too much.

thanks for you thoughtful... um.. thoughts. :)

Re: well yeah.

[silviakundera.livejournal.com]

at this point, muggles are pretty much an innocent group. their ancestors, not so much maybe. but most of them aren't allowed knowledge of the wizard world and thus their reaction is untested.

Yes, I suppose that modern society's reaction remains untested but.... I dunno. Human nature tells me that the reaction wouldn't be positive. I can't *prove* this. but. er. The brief hysteria amoung the religous right over the Harry Potter books comes to mind. ahahaha. And we don't tend to treat any sort of minority well -- be it of a differing ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, ect.

It's like...

(and I'm totally rambling here, train of thought off the tracks and running wild and possibly irrational. la la la.)

the character Luke in Poppy Z. Brite's novel "Exquisite Corpse" -- so angry with the hetrosexual world, calling them "breeders" and wishing fury upon them all.

Yes, he's a fucked up individual, but I can understand some of the frustration some members of minorities feel, that they have to curb all their behavior so not to get in the way of the larger power. If you're a gay man, you can't kiss your boyfriend on the street without worrying retribution. If you're a black man you can't walk up on a deserted street and ask a white woman for directions without thinking of the possibility that she might freak. You live your life constricted in order to keep things smooth and tidy for people who don't even THINK about you or notice or care.

Draco has grown up with this sharp "us" against "them" mentality in his head, in which one sadly degrades and dehumanizes the other, and I can't help but empathize a bit with his attitude... though on a moral plain I also cannot and will not condone it.

Re: well yeah.

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

well, i've been slack about writing a response to this but it's been running around in my head. you do much toward convincing me. i can put myself into a frame of mind where wizards are the oppressed minority and thus have a reasonable amount of anger against their oppressors. and some, as it seems sadly natural at this point, would take this to an extreme and, in doing so, become worse than the oppressors.

one thing that's different - that mucks up the analogy - is that wizards are more powerful, that they have abilities and powers that muggles don't and they know things that muggles don't. most minorities and oppressed people in our world are also disenfanchised, have little money and power. that dynamic is missing from this situation.

and draco, maybe his big problem is that he is a bit of a racist, but this - as you point out - doesn't break down as a question of race. he's worried about bloodlines and such when really muggles can be born to wizards and vice versa. clearly he and his people feel threatened and they're looking for someone - some group - to blame.

and jkr herself supports your point by giving us some really nasty muggles who have horrible reactions to wizards (yeah, dursleys). yes, like i said, you're very convincing. now, to tackle the israel/palestine analogy...

Re: well yeah.

[silviakundera.livejournal.com]

oh, and:

and i'm putting this anology about israel and palestine together in my head whereby the wizards are israel - oprressed by muggles until they mananged to go off and find their own happy space only to fuck it up by turning their opression back on muggles when they find the power to do it and a ruthless enough leader. um. i'd better not attempt to persue that any further.

Persue it! Persue it! I'm fascinated at the comparision.

Re: well yeah.

[phineasjones.livejournal.com]

ok. lessee. i've been thinking about this too. but it always breaks down at a certain point. and i should say, i mean no offence to any israelis or palestinians - do not mean to belittle the situation by drawing connections to a ficticious world. and my bias here is some serious anger toward israel and its current policies and much sympathy toward palestine - just to get that out of the way.

so... right, the jew were persecuted, like witches of old (worse, really, but work with me), and then they finally get a place to call their own - a place where they can make their own government and live the lifestyle they choose. much like our wizards. right. so, israel = wizard world. but then... they are living in a world surrounded (and previously populated) by their enemies of old - arabs/muslims. much like wizards are surrounded by muggles and hemmed in by laws which restrict their behavior around muggles etc. some see this as good and necessary and are content to live their quiet wizard lives. others want the ultimate freedom and power they feel they deserve. they act out aggressively against those who hold them back - the muggles and the law-making/upholding wizards. here's where it breaks down. now, one can see the wizards more in the palestinian role - no one will help them get what they need/what is rightfully theirs so they use horrible tactics of ugly force and hurt innocents in the process.

it's all very interesting... can you go anywhere with this?

Thank you so, so much!

[franzeska]

I saw the comments other people have been making recently, and I almost went and ranted similarly in my own lj. I still might. I hate the attitude that the only characters who can be secretly gay are those that are pretty, exotic looking and rich. You're right about there being no real canon support for homosexuality, but even if one is looking for subtext, Ron sets off my gaydar more than any other character. When I say this, fandom people usually react with extreme surprise, but it's the truth. Why? Because Ron is one of the angriest and most unnecessarily frustrated characters. In my real life experience, people often release the pressures of being closeted not through angst and declarations of eternal love, but through anger and irritating behavior.

I find the general fandom attitude to be both homophobic and classist. Homophobic because it claims that real gay men are the same as figures from the fantasy lives of straight women (yes, other people do write 'slash', but it is still largely written by women and I hope none of the queer ones are this confused). No, Ron isn't real, but by assuming an orientation for a character who is not fleshed out enough to have a sex drive and by stating that one can tell, categorically, that he is straight, he occupies a similar position to that of a real person.

The attitude is classist because it assumes that homosexuality is a vice of the rich, a stereotype with a long and illustrious history to be sure, but still a stereotype.

Normally, I don't get upset by the divergences between women's fantasy lives and real male homosexual practice. After all, there is no reason that they should coincide. However, when people try to reconcile the two, I take exception to the fantasy having precedence over the reality. Sure, black hair and white blond are more symbolic and ethereal than anything and carrots, but I don't want to see that applied to people's conception of genuine sexual orientation.

In addition, I find the implication that I am insane for wanting to slash a character like Ron most distasteful. H/D exists only in the minds of those who write/read/ship it and that is perfectly fine, but it is equally valid for me to construct a different subtext from the canon.

And another thing about Ron...

[franzeska]

I suspect that the reason fanon Ron is so horrid is that he's one of the most fleshed out of the canon characters. Draco is evil and needs to be reformed. Harry we don't really know well, despite his narrator duties. Most of the other characters are either blank slates or the most obvious of caricatures. Ron is one of the few people who we see not just as a villain and not just as a hero. We see him at home, we know, to some extent, what makes him tick. This is the reason I love him in canon, but it makes him less interesting to mess with in fanfiction. There are less blanks to fill in and there is less leeway for the inexperienced author. This leads to him being less interestingly modified and less explored by writers.